Sep 05 2007
Lack of demand IS an issue
As much as some like to whine about how everything is always the government’s or Eircom’s fault with broadband, I stand firmly by my long-standing opinion that while supply has been a (slowly improving) problem, this country has a very serious problem with demand. This is well recognised if you talk to the people who are close to the problem, have a good international perspective and sense of historical context.
Demand remains an issue, and I didn’t only bring forth this notion this week on radio — I have written at least three columns on this (which I guess no one read! LOL). I raised the issue again with Richard Aldiss (filling in for George Hook) on the radio on Monday, as an *additional* (note: not the ONLY) issue of importance and one I think is consistently overlooked. There are literally tens — hundreds? — of thousands of people who CAN get broadband now, many from more than one supplier, at a price that isn’t that much higher or lower than anywhere else, but the reality is: they don’t. They simply DON’T see any advantage to having broadband at home, and neither do many Irish businesses. The big issue is not coverage any longer, folks. The really, really big issue here is that MOST people still do not WANT broadband. This is true, and has been to varying degrees for years.
Example: my entire neighbourhood has been on an enabled exchange for half a decade now, with numerous other broadband options (wireless) too. Until recently — when students moved in next door — I was the only person on my whole street with any form of broadband. I could wardrive the length of this area with my Mac and maybe pick up only two or three others for blocks around with b/b. Yet this area is full of young professionals and students. On any Friday night in a pub, most of these people would easily blow in a single round, what a month’s broadband would cost them, so it ISN’T an issue of cost. The Irish hardly give a toss about costs anyway –look at the cost of drink, mobiles, restaurants, home stamp duty, and how little the Irish protest these issues, which would have people on the streets, voting out the politicians long ago elsewhere. Anyway, my broadband doesn’t cost all that much more than what my parents in Silicon Valley pay — and I had a connection available in my neighbourhood long before they did in theirs, and they are right along the famed heart of Valley VC money, Sand Hill Road! So people, don’t go whinging on about how it is a supply issue, and how the government owes you your broadband, NOW (I want my MTV…oops, YouTube!)! I don’t — excuse the pun — buy it.
Fortunately there are people who have a far more nuanced understanding of the problems and continue to work, as many have for decade,often behind the scenes, to make things change. The funny thing is how some of the projects that here and there were the previous targets of the whingers are actually those that have most contributed to bettering the situation here. This is recognised on an international level, and by analysts, and by businesses, but not often at home. I know some will say an international perspective isn’t clear enough or informed enough because it is all different on the ground here, dammit… but ahem, those would be the same people quick to stick OECD and UN reports on our low level of broadband penetration into press releases, wouldn’t it? LOL
The one thing I do find sad though is the consistently low level of debate on this important topic, often (most disappointingly) especially low from those who purport to want constructive change, where everything inevitably turns into personal attacks rather than productive discussion (often *incorrect* discussion, too — you wonder if people hear what was said, or only what they wanted to hear so they can, yes, whinge some more). Being on the receiving end of personal attacks isn’t necessarily annoying or hurtful, but it is truly disappointing that this is STILL the level of discussion. However, one thing you learn very quickly as a journalist is that some folks love you when you exactly confirm what they want to hear — a type of ‘praise’ that is pretty transparent at the time. Take any view other than that, and you get attacked. Not just your ideas. Not the issues themselves. You. It’s that old, sad strategy of the ad hominem attack.
Tiresome. Boring. Childish. And unproductive. Ah well, onward and hopefully, with supply and demand, upward!
75 responses so far
Both are an issue Karlin. So I guess that makes you half right!
A lot of people could not care less. Which puts it up to the Government (among others) to proactively lead on stirring up demand. Fat chance from the party who started to ignore the Information Society Commission about 2 years before it closed up.
However there are an awful lot of small to medium businesses in either smaller urban areas or rural locations. And they are incredibly frustrated in their efforts to get affordable (or even any kind) of two way broadband. I am currently working on a number of Tech Checks (www.techcheck.ie) and 4 of 11 visits so far have exposed businesses with no broadband option. That is appalling.
keith
karlin, please confirm that the whinger you talk about is me and that it is me.
Wardriving for wifi networks is hardly a useful way to measure broadband penetration. The majority of people I know with broadband don’t have wifi, because they don’t need it. Only one PC or whatever.
[...] bit of a discussion commencing on broadband availability and consumption in Ireland over here and here. Gets out the deckchair, puts up the parasol, enjoys the rest of the sick [...]
Hey Karlin – LOL, this has to be the first time I have been called a ‘whinger’ since I was about 10!
Supply hasn’t been improving, slowly or otherwise. Yes I am quick to trot out OECD reports – but only because they are neutral and show that we have been 23rd out of 30 in terms of broadband penetration for the last several years now.
Oh no — now everyone is going to claim to be one of the whingers, in that peculiarly Irish way…. LOL. Tom, forgive my ignorance, I didn’t even KNOW you’d ever trotted out an OECD report! :^)
On the other point — of COURSE supply has been improving. I just dug out a column from around late 90s that noted there wasn’t a single DSL enabled line in the whole country. Now there are connectivity choices all over the place. I can get broadband from at least 7 suppliers now, and 5 years ago I could only get it from one. My friends in Ratoath and Bandon have broadband now, and didn’t a year ago. Sure, there are places where there is none. But there’s been major change in supply in the past year, the past three years, the past five.
You are living in a different Ireland to the rest of us where a high percentage of people that want BB can’t get it,, over 40% of dsl enabled lines in Limerick city fail and ISPs are running flat out trying to meet demand. Where expensive MOBILE products are bought by people wanting fixed Broadband (30,000 a quarter by some estimates).
Do some real research.
There is no real DSL competition with high cost of backhaul and 17 Euro+ of each person per month going to eircom.
Yes there are more options than 5 years ago. But from ZERO to some is a huge % growth. We are still near the bottom in OECD and Europe because either it can’t be got or line rental is too high.
Households with landlines have fallen from over 82% before privatisation to
less than 69% due to one of the highest line rentals with poorest service.
Just my two cents on this, I think that the supply issue is a huge deal. We live two miles outside tralee, a town of nearly 30,000. Its not too unreasonable to expect bb in our area considering the lack of any geographical impediment.
Yet no sp has come near us. despite a local demand sheet etc. instead we are forced to get sattelite bb. it costs a bomb load and it was bought as a stop-gap two years ago when eircom told us our connection would be ready in 8 months.
its not exchanges its shite copper in the ground that they now cannot afford to replace.
Your example is horrible if I may say so. You state that “I was the only person on my whole street with any form of broadband” yet you deduced this by simply scanning for wireless networks? You didn’t even bother to ask your neighbors. Is that how journalists are suppose to get their information?
The Irish don’t care about cost? Perhaps on your salary but most people have to watch their cash flow very carefully.
You also say that your “broadband doesn’t cost all that much more than what my parents in Silicon Valley pay” America is also a sink hole for broadband. Yet its cheaper. That quote was also very sweeping. Are you comparing like for like? As in same speed, contention, usage allowances?
Hogwash.
Karlin, sure more exchanges have been enabled but we are still as far behind the rest of the developed world as ever we were.
There is also the probability that there is an excess of supply in some areas where it is easy to provide broadband and a the real demand is in the areas where provision is more expensive. With the return on investment being long term, the telcos (many of which are in debt to the hilt), are more likely to go for the cheap and easy wins. Statistics are very easy to manipulate and are often very unreliable – especially when you don’t see the original data or questions. And the government and the telcos are not above spinning these “statistics” to make it appear that they are doing well.
I’m not sure that students and young professionals would be a key demographic for broadband demand. They are far more likely to be the targets for mobile interenet. The real fixed line broadband demand would, I think, come from the demographic of families with school-going children.
True enough, wireless isn’t a gauge of total b/b penetration. But I do think one would expect to see a reasonable number of wireless connections with any reasonable level of penetration, especially given that most modems now have the capability and most laptops have inbuilt wireless capability as well. The level of change is exemplified by how many wirless connections DO come up now when I walk around with, say, the Nokia phone I have on loan. Standing at the top of my street, 7 or 8 pop up. They weren’t there even two years ago.
But people still are not hearing the point — I never disputed that supply was not an issue. And I just wrote a piece last week highlighting how silly it is for a country to have to go to mobile modems to get a broadband connection. I do think there’s a serious problem with demand — as do many of the companies I talk to that have content and that recognise there’s lots of people who could have broadband who choose not to. A lot of them are the people who aren’t all whinging on blogs… :^). There’s a particularly narrow focus than can come from spending a lot of time online. It’s easy to forget that the vast majority of people don’t spend that amount of time online and for whatever reason, still are not pushed to even get online in the first place. I think (and have argud before) that the reasons lie with the historical development of internet connectivity here, well before broadband was available much of anywhere. We missed the boat early on and a market never grew in any natural way. Hence — we continue to have amongst the lowest INTERNET penetration. Forget about broadband. People here weren’t even that interested in dial-up!
Incidentally I won’t allow comments that just add more personal attacks. I know some people think that’s the whole point of a weblog — which is why I don’t read many. Different strokes.
“Tiresome. Boring. Childish. And unproductive. Ah well, onward and hopefully, with supply and demand, upward!”
Even if you disagree with what Karlin had to say the conversation around it has been fairly childish.
For a “knowledge economy” our broadband rollout has been awful but coming back to the demand issue, why would an organisation like irelandoffline.org wind up if there was such a huge unfulfilled demand?
The reason that the market in Ireland never grew in a natural way can be traced back to the decision by Telecom Eireann with the agreement of the politicians to switch from flat rate local calls to timed local calls. This was about the time that the dialup bulletin boards systems in Ireland were beginning to appear. That move killed off many of them and only a few survived. Some of them became Ireland’s first ISPs (Barry Flanagan’s Galway Online/Ireland Online started out as a BBS with one phoneline.) This kind of monopoly thinking is at odds with the evolution of the market. A lot of the problems we see now were caused by the limitation of the thinking of Eircom/TE management. Had dialup internet access been flat rate, then the uptake would have been far higher. That element of call costs is why your point about people not being interested in dialup access is wrong. At the time, some of the ISPs were charging by the hour for access and the dialup charges often involving a long distance call to Dublin (until ISPs invested in virtual POPs with local access numbers). Dialup access was far too expensive in Ireland.
I agree here that demand is an issue and that people don’t want broadband. Why would people want it when,
1. Broadband in Ireland is overpriced,
2. Most of the ISP’s cant provided a stable service.
3. Its not available in every area.
4. The companies that do provide a good service are restricted because our government decided to sell our national communication company and its network!
5. Our supposed regulators don’t want to deal with the majority of the problems when approached by people!
So why would people want broadband when there are so many problems with it out there?
“— I was the only person on my whole street with any form of broadband. I could wardrive the length of this area with my Mac and maybe pick up only two or three others for blocks around with b/b. ”
Thats a hugely inaccurate way of measuring broadband take up in an area. A lot of people simply would not have their wireless turned on, others might not have a wireless modem at all. If this was done in an area where broadband has been available for a few years theres a pretty good chance that most people just wouldn’t have been offered the option of a wireless modem.
I would expect more from a journalist of your stature. I also notice how you have been deleting comments that have disagreed with your opinion, this is what people who can not get broadband because of lack of availability have had to deal with for years. People denying all knowledge and pretending they are not there. You have put forward your opinion
of the people who you say are “whinging on”, Now please let them express there opinions.
It is really professional of you to delete the comments of people who disagree with you. It says more about the issues that you have to delete legitimate comments than the dribble you have written. I don’t like coming off uncivil but after my last perfectly legitimate and quite polite comment was deleted all bets are off.
And my above comment of 1.10am suddenly re appears, after I cry foul.
I agree with you Karlin. There is a big cultural disconnect here on BB. In the main, we Irish are late adopters and still don’t get it. The recent 3 ring circus around Aer Lingus pulling Heathrow flights from Shannon just proved this for me – still 3 ways to fly (direct) to London but people are screaming blue murder, yet NO street protests or cabinet splits demanding the kind of connectivity that really matters ! We’d rather whinge about it over a pint.
Why are there 3000+ two way satellite and unknown number of 1 way download accelerators for dialup (both a lot more expensive and poorer than any broadband), in Ireland?
About 5 to 8 new 2 way satellite Internet added a day. Sales will treble at least when/if Astra2connect arrives (low cost 2 way sat).
Some people do have a choice of Fibre, Cable, DSL, Metro or ordinary Fixed wireless, over 30% to 45% may have no access at all. It difficult to say exactly as eircom won’t publicly publish adsl failure statistics..
95% to 90% of exchanges (or it lines includes 32 channel ISDN as 32 lines which would only be one ADSL user) is thus a fraction of the 69% that have land lines. Factor in lines failing and you have maybye 45% to 55% people served. A maximum of 60% if no lines failed. In some areas maybe only 30%.households in an area with an enabled exchange.
Of course the 40,000 odd users who have acquired laggy iffy 3g data cards in the past year have all done so because they are evidently expressing a clear anti-demand or a counter demand.
No other developed country has 3g data penetration of 1% odd of the population , bar the Czech republic where a fixed variant thereof is used as BB .
No other developed country blithely assumesfor planning purposes that 90% of the population has easy access to decent quality broadband when the actual figure is likely somewhere like 75-80% and certainly not much more than 80%.
Decent quality is 1 down / 256k up and pings sub 50ms so that skype and vpns work .
The writers clearly hasn’t been out of Dublin for a while. I say take a nice trip to Co. Clare and do some war driving here. You will see how devoid we are of ANY service, and that even in large residential estates we are without any broadband. Still.
I know dozens of neighbors who want it, but they claim the lines here are not capable of handling broadband. So I can attest for dozens of people who want it but can’t get it in Clare.
Clarecastle in particular.
I heard Karlin’s slot on newstalk and I though both her and George were star-stricken by the minster. I don’t see anything wrong with being friendly and polite but there was a lot of “we go way back” backslapping. Maybe the context of the show was more chatty than serious but it seemed like poor journalism to me. Sorry I don’t mean this to be a personal attack on George or Karlin – just a criticism of them in a professional context.
Thanks for some interesting and salient points from some here; for others, sheesh, you just prove my point — the level of debate is so low and some immediately resort to the explitive-littered personal attack and silly insinuations (for example, what does what I earn matter to this discussion? Anyone familiar with what freelance writers earn will know it is considerably less than what most who have posted are likely to earn… :^) …). Also, maybe some don’t understand how comments generally work on WordPress (and many other blogs) — a comment won’t appear right away unless you’ve had a comment approved previously. It is one of the standard ways people manage spam. I haven’t deleted your comments, it is just that with many, I haven’t even seen them to okay them, especially as they were made in the early morning hours when I was sound asleep.
Setting all that aside: if people are convinced that there are supply issues to address, then where is the organised lobby on this issue? Why don’t some of you organise, form a lobby group, and put your voices out there in the public arena? Or is talking to each other on blogs and comments less challenging and easier because it involves no real work? Blogs are great for venting and can have a very important role in opening up issues and publicising them — but at the end of the day you either DO something or you expend all your energy on… whinging. No government department, no telco, and virtually none of the Irish population you might want to influence is going to come readyour blog comments.
YOU, yes YOU!! who have bothered to post here, need to go out and DO something if you have strong feelings on these issues and you want things to change, not moan about what I say in this small arena.
I am involved with a regional wireless ISP. we specialise in rural areas. The areas we go into tend not to have existing providers or decent phone lines, with a little marketing we get 25% or more of all houses in the area signing up pretty much as soon as coverage is available. Demand IS NOT the issue.
Regulatory issues are a problem,
Half arsed government interventions in the market serve mainly to distort the market and make it even harder for the regional operators plan for future growth and coverage.
The internal to Ireland transit market is a real problem as is transit availability.
Access to affordable carrier grade products is almost non existent (in spite of the MAN’s) This is a REAL problem for SME’s and Bigger companies trying to locate outside of the M50
Why does the Galway to Dublin leg of transit cost far more than wholesale internet access in Dublin?
The Greens used to have quite a good telecoms manifesto, all of a sudden they have the old broken one from FF, what changed when they got elected?
I do think there’s a serious problem with demand
Is not as much down to the overpriced, poor quality services on offer as anything else? It’s not that people don’t want it, it’s due to the fact that what’s out there does not represent value for money.
If, like in other countries, you could get 20MB ADSL + local and international calls for around €40 per month, I think you’ll find demand would increase.
Is that….
I think you are right in your central point that demand for broadband in area that have broadband supply may not be as high as it could be. The thing is though that any discussion of this issue immediately surfaces the sheer frustration and anger of those who want it but can not get it.
In my opinion the key issue is that every household in the country should have access to the net by right. Whether or not individuals takes advantage of that access is a separate issue.
I was brought up in a rural part of Cork that has no broadband supply today. Is it right that a child living in that area today can not realistically get online while others elsewhere in the country are learning the creative and collaboration skills that will be essential for them to compete in the much smaller/flatter world they are growing up in?
I firmly believe that it is the responsibility of the State, not the markets, to ensure that there is a broadband infrastructure in place provides universal coverage for the entire country.
Our Government has failed us completely. Why not just commit to having universal broadband coverage within 2 years and doing whatever it takes to achieve that.
Vermont is trying something like this with its e-State initiative. Why can’t we?
I know it wasn’t intended to be a precise metric but: “I could wardrive the length of this area with my Mac and maybe pick up only two or three others for blocks around with b/b” . I seem to recall when I got broadband from eircom the router arrived with wireless off – it was only because I have a laptop that I turned it on. Many punters with a single PC probably have a wired connection & no intention to be buzzed by Karlin’s Mac.
But you’ve hit an interesting point. I had cause to physically go into a bank the other day (something I don’t think I’ve done for years) and ended at the end of an enormous queue. Watching punters at the counter, it seemed to me that possibly three quarters of the transactions were exactly those that can be done online. So is it education? Marketing? Or simply the vestige of a pre-Tiger culture that doesn’t spend on ‘fripperies’.
And then again. If people don’t want it, and don’t need it, so be it.
Oops that point already made.
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Broadband in Ireland is only driven by demand i.e. you need a justification to get broadband before you install it because it is so expensive. An extra €20 a month for even the cheapest package, on top of an exorbitant line rental charge means that broadband is not an impulse purchase by a family who want to experiment but rather requires justification. The demand is out there, but how does a teenager explain to her parents that she wants them to spend an extra €200 a year so she can chat to her friends on bebo.
We’re not special, we’re not a country which is different to all the others. Penetration rates in other countries are not so high because of the exceptional features offered by their ISPs or content providers, it’s because they have kept the prices low and the technology is available. It would be the same in this country if the apologists for our ripoff culture would actually do their job and regulate the industry.
I’m sure you’ll enjoy the comments regarding you “idea” on boards.ie
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055146505
If there have been personal attacks been made against you, then mabye you should highlight them and the proponents of the attacks. I don’t want to come across as a smart-ass, but I’d like to know who you think has done much over the last decade to bring broadband to the Irish masses.
Criticisms of the ministers of comms. and eircom and a few other groups and wishful thinkers were not plucked out of the sky. There are people out there who damaged their phonelines simply to get rid of digital carriers. People who had to go to Pat Kenny just to get their failed lines in Dublin City Centre to pass.
Indeed, demand WAS an issue, but I don’t see the justification to say it IS an issue. According to the latest regulator data, there are 50% more broadband connections than dial-up connections.
I expect you see the likes of Damien Mulley et al as detractors, despite the fact that he and others like him were the people who met the Dept. of Communications, ComReg and explained their case on various radio and TV shows.
I’d love to know what the actual coverage figures are, considering how Eamonn Ryan includes lines connected to the enabled exchanges which fail. 6% of lines cannot even manage Functional Internet Access, according to ComReg. So who is to blame for that? The point is that 90% is a lie, and I hope that Eamonn Ryan and Karlin will recognise this eventually.
Hi Karlin – I visit this site occasionally but I think this is my first comment, exercising my right to whinge. Karlin, we are quite entitled to comment on the lack of availability of broadband in our areas without launching an active campaign. Yes, of course we should be on the streets with placards, but regardless, that does not rid us of our right to give our opinions and our stories wherever it is welcome. I should also be putting an end to world hunger, I feel strongly about that too, but why does that mean I should not moan in your small arena?
Incidentally, governments, telcos, and a lot of the Irish population often come across the blog comments – especially if you have a decent Google ranking. The Irish internet is a small place and, having worked for an ISP before, I can confirm that a lot of tiny internet voices do add up – just ask anyone at Irish Broadband or Eircom or Digiweb if they’ve heard of boards.ie. What we write on our blogs and comments creates a mild buzz on the internet which generally reflects public opinion.
I didn’t hear the radio show, but regarding demand for broadband, I see where you’re coming from in that a disproportionately large percentage of Irish people are clueless about technology: “Computers!!! keep them away from me!”, but this is no justification for throwing around figures like 90%. Yes, demand is an issue, but it is a very minor issue. I can’t comment on the show, but bear in mind that we are so used to Eircom and the government making excuses and throwing around blatantly false statistics like 90% over the past few years, that we are very sensitive to anything that could be perceived as tip-toeing around government ministers on the important issues.
On a side note, any time I was present on broadband installations, less than 35% of the customers took the optional wireless router. One of my favourite ways of gauging supply vs demand is by talking to people in the area. A couple of years ago, every child in my local primary school got a laptop – maybe this is part of why the demand is sky high in my area, and the supply is almost nonexistent. I’m not joking – I was talking to a middle-aged farmer the other day who complained that he’d love to start using VOIP but hasn’t got the bandwidth.
Where were you when ireland-offline was being put together?
http://www.irelandoffline.org
I think that to clarify the issue you need to quantify what this “demand” is for.
Only then can it be “proven” wether there is a demand for that type of service.
What i do know is the follwoing:
1) 100% coverage will never happen. Nobody needs it and it doesn’t make any sense.
2) Current coverage outside the major urban centres is dire.
3) Enabling exchanges is only half the story, the current line failure rate is a much more important issue.
4) Bitching and whining doesn’t achieve anything. Putting forward proposals to solve the problem does.
5) The MAN’s are a huge step in the right direction and could do a lot to solve the current broadband shortfall (if only they were managed and utilised properly).
E.
You are inaccurate to say there is no or little demand. In fact I wonder what research you did at all to say this.
Supply is a major issue. In the part of Kildare I am in there is no cable broadband available and the wireless options are very poor. The only option is broadband via Eircom or BT. I do not want to pay for line rental when I dont make calls. This pushes the price of broadband to 650 euro per year with Eircom with almost half of it on line rental.
That is a SUPPLY problem. The demand is there for good and reasonably priced broadband.
dont think your comment on wireless networks as a view of broadband connectivity i was at my parents in west yorkshire in the middle of a housing estate fired up my laptop nada nothing where i would have expected to see lots of nice unsecured networks that i could “borrow” nothing. so i dont think your analogy is at all valid. wireless is also fairly useless in our brick and stone houses it certainley struggles in my house to get from one side to the other also wardriving – irish houses tend to have larger gardens again effectivley reducing your likrlrhood of seeing them. btw i still know loads of people struggling to get phone lines!
I’m delighted to provide the whingefest fodder for the week! :^)
RE Ireland Offline, clearly some here haven’t, er, done their research and do not know that it is now defunct and has been since the start of summer.
On my whole issue of slowly improving access that so many here dispute, and the fact that supply in terms of availability is perhaps less an issue that QoS (as I stated on Hook), quality of lines, and demand — oh and the govt scheme which I never actually had time to even address on Hook — let’s have a look at what Damien Mulley of IOL said only last June 8 as the organisation closed down. Clearly he feels there has been great success in increased availability with IOL rightly taking some credit for those improvements. From the Irish Times:
Ireland Offline group powers down
Éanna Ó Caollai
Broadband pressure group Ireland Offline ceases operations today after six years of campaigning for increased availability of affordable broadband internet access.
The group, headed by an elected committee and with a membership of 2,100, has operated since the withdrawal of the Esat Fusion’s “NoLimits” flat-rate Internet service in 2001.
Speaking to ireland.com this morning, Ireland Offline chairman Damian Mulley said: “It’s sad to see Ireland Offline go, but at the same time, there has been so much progress in the last six to 12 months that it’s nice to see that our work and campaigning is paying off.”
While “progress is being made” in terms of broadband availability, with 25 per cent of the country still unable to get broadband services, there remain “a few areas that still need to be addressed,” he said.
Mr Mulley said one issue of concern is the current high cost of flat-rate Internet dial-up services.
Access to the Internet via a dial-up connection is usually limited to a fixed number of hours per month but, with increasing file sizes and a growing dependency on downloading patches and anti-virus software, many consumers exceed that limit and end up paying very high dial-up fees as a result.
Mr Mulley said this was “quite profitable for telcos at the moment” and while representations have been made to Comreg, they “don’t seem to be enthusiastic about it”.
As broadband services become more widely available, Mr Mulley said issues such as cost and quality of service will increasingly come to the fore.
The basic nature of broadband packages and the tendency to lock customers into deals where they must avail of telephone services are a cause for concern, he said.
While the National Broadband Scheme “will be an improvement,” the Government-sponsored package will lock customers into a five-year deal where download speeds will equate to only 1Mb/sec whereas 100Mb/sec is the norm in Paris and other European cities.
>>
Sounds to me like Damien pretty much echoes many of the same points I made on Hook, doesn’t it? :^) And unlike many here, agrees there has been a significant improvement in broadband availability (apparently to the point where the whole organisation could now be disbanded and no one else wanted to take up the reins?) — and in addition, he gives a general thumbs up to the government’s broadband scheme as well with the caveat that speed remains an issue (the latter exactly the point I made on Hook).
Surely if IOL felt greatly disturbed by the scheme and the minister, this would have been the time and place to make those points? One might even call him an apologist for the broadband scheme given the lack of strong criticism and general acceptance that it is a good idea. :^)
Separate to that, I don’t really feel I need to defend my own longtime exposure of the serious problem with broadband supply as it is well documented. I addressed conferences, gatherings of Dail deputies, computer groups, business groups and university groups on the issue for the best part of a decade. Search on my name and broadband in the Times archive and you get 153 articles — that’s nearly two articles a month for the eight years I have been on contract to them. Of those, 150 will be on the SUPPLY problem or other topics around b/b.
Finally — of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion! I’m not sure where have I said people aren’t entitled to complain, argue, post, comment, write a blog, stand in the street with a placard? My SOLE complaint is that I don’t care for personal attacks and was disappointed that some resorted to those over the past week. And no, I won’t dignify the attacks by naming the several people involved (though it is bizarre to watch how many seem to WANT to be the unnamed people!).
Personalising an argument doesn’t move it forward or accomplish anything constructive though it may make some people feel important. Nor does sitting around moaning on weblogs (and as one who has had a weblog longer than just about everyone who has joined this debate, and done my share of moaning, I should know!). I’d like to see some of that energy harnessed and the issue moved forward more constructively. If people want to dispute what I say, here, on blogs, on streetcorners, on Boards.ie (where I have known deVore for a long, long time and kindly been given space and support to discuss many tech issues) that’s very cool — discussion is good! But again, the point is that endless whinging *doesn’t produce any change*. If blogs serve only to become the online equivalent of a moan in the pub, and the focus is to pick on people rather that the ideas expressed, where does that get anyone? The real power of blogs and boards and other forms of online communication are to raise and ADDRESS issues, to agitate for action and organise, to exchange viewpoints and information. Just ripping into people (or ideas, for that matter) won’t change the situation. But maybe it will persuade some folks that a national lobby organisation to express the POV of the home user in particular is STILL NEEDED. A dozen or more blogs that all pingback each other and comment on each other in a verbal circle isn’t going to change a thing. Interface with the real world instead!
PS I am doing my best to OK people’s comments here as soon as I get online. I only check the blog now and then and am not by a computer all the time so I may only get a chance to do this once a day. Some stuff does get autodeleted if the system thinks its spam so apologies if one or two go missing. BTW check my column, on blogs, tomorrow — written last Sunday before this all became an issue for so many. LOL
It’s kind of disappointing though that so *many* want to weigh in on this topic –really just one aspect of a large topic — and so few have ever bothered to respond to many years (5!) of my posts or articles on an issue that remains extremely important, data retention. If you understand broadband and technology, this should matter to you! Because of such indifference, we now have the longest retention period in Europe on personal data and this country comfortably drove EU-wide legislation in this area given evidence that the entire population seemed generally indifferent to this important civil rights and privacy issue. I sure wish the Irish blogosphere had decided to post, crosspost, pingback and comment — and had acted — when the legislation could have been halted. Only a very few ever highlighted the problem. It was also very hard to get members of Boards.ie interested though the mods and admin gave a full forum to the subject, and tried. Shame, that.
Karlin, OECD figures are awfully dated and generally off. The best data at present is the ECTA score card, I guess you possibly know that already though. As an ALTO monitor, they’ve proven this time and time again both to ComReg and DCMNR as they were.
A fabulous example of this was when ALTO embarrassed Etain Doyle in the Davenport Hotel a few years ago. The pure operator and ECTA data trumped the OECD by a mile. On foot of this a penalty regime was implemented allowing operators compensation for incumbent foot-dragging.
My premise is that some forebearance arrangement allowing full and efficient LLU and removing regulation from eircom on aspects of markets might improve matters (I always dread advocating removal of regulation, but forebearance is the only way). I am sure you know of the US UNE model that was scrapped in late 2004, after new entrant operators had an oppertunity to get some ‘mass market’ penetration.
Ref. my comments on competing with UPC. eircom need critical mass at any cost to fulfil that, even if its via xDSL, DSL+2 or LLU.
I heard the radio show and wasn’t all that impressed. Effectively whoever takes the Communications portfolio looks to buffer their personal rep. by scraping out the best report possibly and endeavouring to wedge a large shoe into ComReg and the Civil Service. Ireland is a mere minnow on the broadband scales (regardless of which one we analyse). I don’t think demand is purely the issue, its also total inertia.
Investment incentives are flawed additionally. Civil works for telco’s are listed last on the priority agenda out of 8 other potential industries/parties that can dig.
I’d love to see a day when Ireland is similar to the Netherlands. Healty Broadband penetration, good cable competition and an intelligent incumbent. eircom are only going NGN to compete with UPC, period.
On Data Retention, the 2005 CT Act says 3 years, that’s primary legislation and we had no right to reply (Counter Terror measure). The government is still litigating the issue on the EU Data Retention Enforcement Directive (and rightly so based on EU Pillar placement), its unlikely to sway the timing issues we have in the 2005 Act owing to a national margin of appreciation. ISPAI are working on that, with ALTO and others.
Note: Italy has 4 years on Data Retention (2 regular, 2 judicial)
On Data Protection I think we might need a fact check on the Article 29 working group, you’ll find Ireland is in line with the rest of the EU on the subject.
Retention and Protection are totally different issues. I am sure you know that already, but the above comment is unclear.
I’d also say its nice to have the blog back and active, as it was quiet for some time!
Karlin, the legal case to try and abolish the legislation allowing such lengthy periods of data retention is being challenged in the courts.
I challenge you to present us with your attempts to prevent this legislation from being passed and also how you plan to help it be abolished.
Yes, I know very well that the case has been taken. I was the one who broke the story that it was being taken to begin with! :^) So where do I begin on my own work on this issue?
There are many people who can tell you in more detail and without any bias what I, personally, have done — including all the lawyers working on the current case and all at Digital Rights Ireland. I have talked with those who have taken the case at various stages. I have networked with numerous international lobbies to keep them up to date and in most cases, was the one to initially inform them of this legislation. I’ve worked with three major rights organisations on this issue: EPIC in Washington DC (see below), Privacy International in the UK, and Statewatch in the UK. I have spoken to activists lobbying in the EU. I maintained a data privacy archive documenting each and every step by which the Irish government attempted to bring in this legislation (lost when I moved my blog to WordPress but I do plan to reassemble it as it was widely used). I spoke behind the scenes with numerous lawyers including those who have taken the case and international civil rights lawyers. I wrote the leader for the Times on the subject.
I was the one who initially uncovered the trail that indicated the government had already imposed data retention through the secret cabinet direction. I have debated the former justice minister on radio and spoken to him privately and publicly on the issue several times. The few deputies who asked questions in the Dail during debates quoted me and my articles in those questions (search the Dail record). I was the closing keynote speaker at HEAnet’s annual conference to highlight the issue. I have spoken to investigative journalists on this issue and tried to get Primetime to cover it numerous times. I am the source of background information and coverage on this issue for Statewatch, and in EPIC’s webpages (the Elecronic Privacy Information Centre, the largest organisation defending digital rights in the US and taking cases to the Supreme Court); as well as at Privacy International. I have worked with the Irish Council on Civil Liberties on the issue. I was a keynote speaker/panel member on the topic for the Irish Centre for European Law last year. I have spoken to the Irish Computer Society on the topic. I have spoken to UCD’s Internet Soc on the issue. I have spoken on a panel in the European Parliament on the issue.
Random selection of documents indicating my involvement:
Justification for the court case: http://www.tjmcintyre.com/resources/Data%20Retention%20in%20Ireland.doc
Privacy International background: http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd%5B347%5D=x-347-140716
Statewatch background: http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/may/17ireland.htm
This was brought in five years ago? I only heard about it last year and nearly everyone I asked about it knew nothing. What was the coverage like at the time?
Search the Times archives and you will see that I gave it heavy coverage, in between stories (some on page 1) and my column throughout that time (and ongoing now as well). I also covered it for the Guardian, and Wired news. Among Irish journalists, only Fergus Cassidy has given it consistent coverage during that time.
What I’m trying to get is what percentage of the population could have possibly known about legislation before it was passed in order to protest it?
Not everyone reads the Times or the Guardian and I don’t imaging most Irish have heard of Wired news. The only medium that could have really worked would have been RTE news to get the message across as everyone receives it. Was it reported on that? Even if it was I doubt that RTE would have reported it with any kind of urgency.
Proper internet connections at the time would have allowed people to become informed on this issue and we might not have this problem now. Internet connections are as big a part of the democratic process as any other. They allow us to become informed on different issues in a less censored environment than in newspapers or on news channels. Thus allowing us to make proper decisions. So why can’t we have a proper democracy? Why can’t we have proper internet access? Without it we are ALL losing something beautiful. The banishing of ignorance and blossoming of knowledge.
I hope the court case is won. Recording a persons online activities without any valid reason is bad enough, but retaining it for three years is madness. How would Eircom store all of that
data? It would certainly cost a lot on hardware.
We appear to have an impasse
1. Damien when winding up IrelandOffline ( not enough persons came forward to forma viable committee so fair enough) stated
“While “progress is being made†in terms of broadband availability, with 25 per cent of the country still unable to get broadband services, there remain “a few areas that still need to be addressed,†he said.”
2. Eamonn Ryan , with Karlin present, stated that 10% of the country could not get broadband during the Newstalk item that appears to have started this whole spat . Eamonn was not corrected on this figure by Karlin ….indicating she concurs.
Which of these is the actual position then Karlin.?
From which of these widely divergent assumptions does one form ones operational assumptions .
25% is a shocking number in a supposedly developed country while 10% seems to me anyway to befar too low.
I personally believe its about 20% by the way. Far too high .